AI for Voice-overs and Audio Branding with David Ciccarelli (Episode 107)

Chris Schwager 0:18
Hello video marketing professionals and welcome to the podcast that takes the mystery out of producing videos. I'm your host, Chris Schwager. Today, our guest is David Ciccarelli, the founder and CEO of Voices.com, a company that focuses on finding the best voice talent available in the market, making sure that they get working opportunities with businesses that are in need of voice services.

Chris Schwager 0:59
He has grown voices to become the number one marketplace for voiceovers and audio production with over 2 million registered users. A lover of music and sounds. David is also an audio engineer who can also provide great insights into management, business development, marketing, and finance. And he just is a great guy, I'm loving it. I'm loving him. So to learn more about marketing using voiceovers, here's our chat with David.

David Ciccarelli 1:34
I grew up like you and probably many others, tinkering with, you know, audio and video equipment. I ended up going to an audio engineering school where I learned how to record, edit, mix and produce sound for film, radio, you name it. And when I graduated, I actually opened up a small recording studio of my own. Turns out I actually got my name in the local newspaper, kind of introducing the small studio that I had into our local community. And it's on my birthday of all days. And this is kind of where the story gets interesting. I

David Ciccarelli 2:04
At the time, my wife, Stephanie, she was a classically trained singer. She'd sing at weddings and funerals and special events. And her mom read this article and suggested she get her singing repertoire recorded onto a CD that could be distributed to prospective clients. So through that referral, I think her mother playing Cupid, if you will, she came down to the studio. And we ended up hitting it off. But because of that same article, there were other small businesses in the city that wanted a female voice to record some commercials, some phone system recordings, and I was kind of a nerd, I knew one girl in the city who I just met the other day. And that was Stephanie. And my pitch to her was, hey, you got a great singing voice. I know you've done some acting. What if you came back down to the studio, you be the voice talent, and I'll be the audio engineer and we'll split the money 50-50?

David Ciccarelli 2:54
So that's how we started working together and put up a small website that, you know, listed her as the one voice talent, and soon attracted other freelancers from across North America. And eventually around the world who spoke different languages, have different accents. And concurrently, there would be clients that worked at video production companies, ad agencies, and then visit this website and say, How do I get in touch with this person? And that was like the aha moment! We kind of just listed people a little bit ad hoc. And we're like, wow, what if we step back from the recording business ourselves, and instead, reinvent our ourselves as this online marketplace. And that's really what voices.com has become.

Chris Schwager 3:34
It's amazing journey. And in preparation for this podcast, my team was explaining to me getting you on and I was super pumped and just had to revisit our past 20 years in business. And how we started using voiceovers. And it wasn't very easy, right? I mean, how long has voices.com been operating?

David Ciccarelli 3:56
Oh, we started in 2005, which is quite a while ago. So I mean, literally right out of school, opened the studio and started this online company right afterwards.

Chris Schwager 4:06
So right, so it's straight to online?

David Ciccarelli 4:08
Yeah. Yeah, it was. And that was one of the things that was that was different, you know, and talk about kind of the, the old way and new way, if you will, previously. You know, I think this is what you're alluding to. I mean, you'd if you had a script or an ad or content you want produced, you'd probably work through a number of talent agencies who represented talent, and then maybe hire a casting director, the person to sit in a high chair with the golden ears, and listen to actors finally, and in person one after another. That was just the audition, right? Because then you kind of down select and then go, okay, maybe there's a callback and you get a few more people down selected. And then finally, you make your selection, just, you know, probably takes two, three weeks, just to find that one person who you actually want to work with, then you have a recording session. So there was a lot of back and forth kind of a an elongated process that, you know, we found like we could, we could probably condense that and digitize it, if you will, for lack of better

Chris Schwager 5:04
Yeah, looked at. And it's interesting because it was a lot of work. And for us at that time, we weren't using an agency as much who we had relationships with individual voice talent. And we didn't do the rehearsals so much, we just got in there and did it because these guys were pros. And we trusted them to spend a couple of minutes beforehand, looking at pronunciation, and ways things have been said and tone and all that type of stuff. And they would do that pre preparation, and then get straight in and record it, which was great. And it blew us away, it was great to sit in the front seat and understand how proficient they are and how pro they are at their craft.

Chris Schwager 5:38
But after a while of us kind of going through this business, like it was more important. Speed became a big issue, you know, like we didn't have all the data to sit there and rehearse and talk to voice talent. So agencies was definitely a more compelling move forward. And likewise, for music, stock video, all the stuff that we as video production guys get access to now that speeds up considerably speeds up the process. I mean, back in the day, it was CDs, it was stuff in the post.

David Ciccarelli 6:10
Which are researchable, right? So you're literally going through by hand, flipping through catalogs to go Oh, I wonder what that sounds like? And then pop in the CD. No, that's not right. Even voice talent, you know, profile, you know, there wasn't kind of a concept of a profile. You'd have your demo CD or your demo reel that we shipped on CDs, or reel to reel tape. So that's like one of the big benefits, whether it's stock music, voiceover, video assets, they're stored in a database, which is searchable catalog, you never have to remember you can create favorites lists and so forth. There's a lot of (inaudible) to kind of take this have this be part of the production process. And it kind of serves as that bit of a second memory for you.

Chris Schwager 6:52
Yeah, like for us, it's now we've got kind of a top 10 males, top 10 females. They get, we kind of break that down to the top three for our client, they get to kind of have a listen and have a choose themselves. And it comes back to us we put their order in. They tell us what sort of tone, what's it for and all that sort of criteria, which I think my team does. And you know, we're just, it just goes into the timeline. It's done and dusted.

Chris Schwager 7:21
You know, it's interesting because it just now with Tiktok, what other applications, but certainly for one of our videos, I was able to put a caption on the screen as I was publishing the content and then have it voiced over. Now, obviously, it's not one of your voiceovers, right. But what sort of threat does that pose? Because it's, if any, I mean, it just it was just more of an observation, what was interesting was it put an auditory, that was spelling things out for those that aren't readers, right. And was was able to kind of narrate what the video was all about. All from just punching a couple of words as text.

David Ciccarelli 7:55
Yeah, you're hitting on a hot topic, for sure. I mean, we, we refer to this as an AI voice or a synthetic voice. And I think there's a there's a time and a place for it. And I would characterize it this way. When content, think of it like a two by two matrix where on the horizontal axis, it's time. So the shorter the time almost as these voice interactions, it could be turned by turn directions and elevators speaking to you, gate changes in an airport. So kind of almost like sound bite size. Then, and then you have the dynamic, you know, the nature of how often the content is changing. So is this really dynamic content?

David Ciccarelli 8:32
Again, turn by turn directions, maybe there's new addresses that come up, or names of buildings, or gate changes, or train stations, platform changes, the contents changing all the time, you can't have a talent rush into the studio to re-record that. So you have the combination of those two, for the most part, they're very industrial applications, almost like, you know, real world applications. That's when I think this kind of AI voice or synthetic voice, you know, might make sense.

David Ciccarelli 9:00
When the content however, is longer and format. You need to educate and inform and entertain an audience. There's a story, there's character development, there's emotion. You know, it's the, the cont the quality of these AI voices certainly is getting better. But it doesn't, you know, what we found in some studies, is it usually under 10 seconds, a lot of people actually can't discern the difference when it's in 10 and 30. That's where there's this uneasiness of I don't know if it's a human or a robot talking to you.

David Ciccarelli 9:32
You create this anxiety, which you're actually not listening to the content. You've disengaged, and you're now trying to discern, what is this that's actually talking to you? And then after 30 seconds to 60 seconds and beyond, again, audio books and audio dramas and documentaries, people want to listen to people who sound like them, they want to be told a story to kind of get lost in the moment and not have these awkward kind of vocal artifacts that tend to get still generated by some of these AI voice.

Chris Schwager 10:01
So what is the future then? When do you see that those nuances will be perfected? How many years are we away? And this is a bit of an absurd question for you, because you're in the business of doing the right you know, doing the the artistry behind behind it, not just, you know, mechanics. But how far do you reckon we're away? You know, could it be 20 years that we're away from something that is so unbelievable,

David Ciccarelli 10:26
I think it's a lot sooner than that. I mean, we it's kind of a couple of data points here. One, the time that it takes to create these voices, used to require 60 to 80 hours to sample every single sound imaginable, you know, and what they're doing is taking a word like project, and then kind of cutting it up where you have Pro for professional and jacked could be used for object reject, right? And they're stitching words together. That's why it's sometimes sounds very mechanical, I think is you know, as you said. But that used to require a lot of content, 80 hours, for one, you know, language in gender and age, right, one kind of character.

David Ciccarelli 11:07
Now, it's kind of down to about two to three hours, over three. Adobe claims, they can do it in 20 minutes. But, you know, it's, I think that's a lot of showing talent and big kind of conferences and trade show, but it's definitely getting shorter, which means that actors can actually use these engines to create a synthetic or an AI voice of themselves, like clone their own voice. So the most progressive actors actually see this as an opportunity to scale their own production kind of work while they sleep. I mean, imagine having, you can hire me, or you can license my voice by just typing in the text.

Chris Schwager 11:48
That's unreal.

David Ciccarelli 11:50
That's the nuance where I think we're going to get to is, it doesn't have all of like, the emotion and the inflection. And in order the software tools that I've, you know, either demoed or people have kind of shown me, these still require manipulation, you know, with the software, you can't just paste in a paragraph, and get out all of this emotion. You're still it's almost like musical annotations, you still having to kind of put emphasis on certain things. And every software tool does it differently, until it's as seamless as a text editor, where everybody understands what bold is, Italic says and underlines. And is this a common way to annotate voice? I think that's actually the hurdle right now there's this translation layer, but it's gotta be just, you know, you know, don't make me think type simple. That's how easy it's got to be. That's the part I think, is going to take a bit longer. But until then, I mean, we've spoken with, you know, PhDs from MIT, who are like, literally working on this problem for the last five years. And they are saying, kind of 5-10 years. I mean, it's not as long as 20.

David Ciccarelli 12:53
There's a famous Bill Gates quote, that says, you know, "we underestimate what's going to happen in the, in the next, you know, five years, we overestimate, it's gonna happen in 20" like, meaning most things happen a lot faster than we think like, oh, that couldn't. I mean, think just think of the last couple years how dramatic life has changed right before our eyes. So I think it's coming. I think it's more of a matter of when, you know, not if, and I would say the moment which is a little bit indiscernible but the moment where that robotic or AI voice is indistinguishable from the human voice for a prolonged period of time. That's the singularity moment, if you will.

Chris Schwager 13:36
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Chris Schwager 14:29
Well, I think it's progressive that you approach this in that way. And we're already using I think control tracks or what we call control tracks which would be AI voices for just to get the timing of certain edits and whatever, which I think is a smart move and then recording the proper voiceover later on.

Chris Schwager 14:52
Tell me about branding, this something that came up in my notes. And I did question it with the team. And I was like, Okay, what are your branding? Right? So the phrase, what is it? And why is it important in business?

David Ciccarelli 15:04
Well, first, first off, I think that, I mean, it's been well documented that about a third of the world population are auditory learners. We learn best by listening. And I certainly count myself in there. I mean, I have 500 audiobooks on my iPhone that I continue to download and listen to the same ones often over and over. And a huge fan of podcasts as well, too. So knowing that there's a cohort or contingency of the world's population that learns best by listening, then there's an opportunity for marketers to either augment their video, where it used to be kind of all about the video, like delight with the sound afterwards, like almost design, in a, you know, mute in type experience, but oh, if they're sound and that's great. What we're seeing now is a lot of advertisers in particular, thinking about sound first, or at least at the same time as developing the storyboard.

David Ciccarelli 16:05
Now, audio branding, I would define as your unique, you know, soundscape that drives home the tone and the personality of your brand, it could be a collection of sounds, maybe some kind of musical quality, it could be an embodied voice, could be maybe some synthetic vocalization, you know, some sound effects, or kind of all of the above. Often, this gets kind of boiled down to the sound logo or the audio logo. Think of the chime when you boot up Netflix, or, you know, the musical notes when you turn on your Mac. I mean, these are sound logos. But I think the overall audio brand is almost like the entire soundscape of every time people hear your organization, whether it's the phone, or maybe an in store experience. There's almost this familiarity of Yes, I called the right place. Yes, I'm in the right place. That is developed over time. So it started with the jingle, and kind of like improving recall. But I think it's now being used in new ways either, as you know, as new, frankly, audio channels emerge, creating opportunities for marketers. So hopefully that kind of provided, you know, not too much of it an academic definition, but certainly get kind of a sense of what we're trying to, you know, communicate of the importance of taking sound maybe as seriously as the video component.

Chris Schwager 17:33
So I was watching Wolf of Wall Street for about the 50th. Time, the other day, and so much of that era was about audio selling really, was all over the phone. And I was explaining, explain it to someone the other day, just these transformation really over the last three years in particular, but how much audio selling for me like getting on the phone and trying to sell someone without them visually seeing me how poorly that works. I just I hate it. I think things get misinterpreted. I don't think we're tuned in like we like The Wolf of Wall Street days. And the ability to have all these body language nuances now and the video side of things like all of our inquiries, our video meetings for 15 minutes, they're all that's pretty much how we stopped.

Chris Schwager 18:24
So, you know, maybe we're fluffing around a bit more, and maybe you know, things in our business certainly take longer to sell, you know, people need to touch and feel and be a part of it. And but the visual element is such a big deal. Right? So what's the question? I don't have a real strong question here. But I'm just probably looking at maybe what the threat is potentially to what you were saying earlier. With regards to to audios Is there a threat in video that audio may not be or at least voice artists may or may not be as vital as they once were?

David Ciccarelli 18:59
Videos always been the star of every show, right? Audio has certainly played the supporting role. I'd argue though, that, you know, a lot of ways marketers have just saturated the eyes. And now they're moving on to the ears. How do we find some untapped channel? And so marketers are kind of looking at, hey, maybe audio represents a way to tell the story in a deeper format, a longer, more meaningful way. It's not the 15 second reel or the six second Tiktok video. It's the 20 minute podcast. It's the 30 minute you know, interview back and forth where both sides you know it's more of a conversation and you actually end up starting to feel like you Get to know somebody vicariously even though you've never met them. I'm sure we have all this. It's it's a long standing phenomenon where people watch the news. And they feel like they're, the News host, his is actually a friend of theirs, it happens in business as well too, where you kind of tune in at a certain time and you and you get to have the sense of familiarity.

David Ciccarelli 20:07
So I actually think audio can do that in, because it just requires more time to almost develop that, you know, virtual relationship, if you will. But there's these audio only experiences where I think we many of us experienced, certainly, during the pandemic of just feeling screen fatigue, I still want to learn, I still want to listen. But I don't always want to be necessarily looking at video over a long, long period of time. Yes, there's a number of podcasts that I listened to that have a video component. It's actually all done on camera, yes, but I only for some reason, listen to the, to the audio version, which I appreciate, you know, why your show has actually both as well, too. So I think there's a lot of people that are like that, you know, 20-30 minutes, it's actually, you know, been again, documented as the ideal length, because it's the average commute in a lot of metropolitan areas. It's the average length of walking a dog. And it's the prescribed dose of a daily dose of exercise.

David Ciccarelli 21:10
So, you know, when you ask people kind of what they're listening to, and maybe I do these kind of cold spot checks in our neighborhood, when I see, you know, friendly faces, who I know well enough, I'm like, Oh, what are you listening to today? And I hear like, oh, this, this, you know, health podcast or this, you know, you know, a meditation sometimes that they're listening to, or I'm listening to a story. The number of adults that listen to stories to fall asleep at night is, is amazing. I mean, people are looking to be entertained in, in primarily in ways with with screen. But then there's these other moments during the day, where it's okay, people still want to have some kind of, you know, you know, some some experience some sensory stimulation, or winding down yet, you know, not by the all consuming, you know, it video screen, doing so just with maybe some earbuds and winding down at the end of the day.

Chris Schwager 22:03
It's exactly how I listen to my podcast first thing in the morning, mostly, we've got a whole range of different types of styles of podcasts, predominantly checking my own, obviously, because I want to make sure my team is actually fulfilling the requirements. And there's no errors in my podcast. But you know, as Gary Vee that probably got me thinking about this transfer of information and how important audio was going to be in the long term and how you write like people can consume you while they're driving the car, they don't need to visually see you. And it's funny, I believe that for a long time, and that's why we invested we've gone two years now on this podcast, 100 episodes, by the way. And

David Ciccarelli 22:43
I was giving you the shadows, congratulations. I said that's quite the milestone you've reached No, 100 of anything. That's an effort.

Chris Schwager 22:52
Yeah, well, look, you know, to be honest, it's all team. You know, I think if I was trying to trudge through this and do it every week, it would never have continued and so many other people try their podcasting, and do six episodes and go, Oh, my God, I got better things to do, you know, or, and I've had people recommendations, whether it's a good idea in their marketing, maybe alongside their, their video marketing, and it's like, you know, it's too early, you know, it's still too early, you know, people have said they've done amazing things and others just like, it's crickets, you know, and you've got to understand what the goal is. And the intent is in the first place.

Chris Schwager 23:26
So I went on that journey, right, and I've gone on that journey, and I'm happy to continue on that journey. But then it was one of my clients that said, you know, I listened to one of your earlier lives, because we started the podcast as a live recording, and kind of, we just wanted to like, hit stop, dust our hands of it and walk away. And it was already on, you know, as a podcast. Over time, we realized we just needed some more production around this and greater value and making sure that we, you know, had some preparation in there. So that's kind of how it was engineered, but one of my earlier clients got on one of these lives and actually had a comment, and I didn't realize this for you until years later, he said, Oh, that was really good that day that like that was a great thing. It was it was kind of was cool. And and it certainly got him tuned in to the possibilities of video, you know, but the key thing that he said was I sit and watch Netflix, I don't watch free to air TV anymore. I watched YouTube videos. And I sit down because you know, like we've we've got our 75 inch TV, it's all plugged into YouTube. And you can sit there and be entertained, whether that's been through education style content, or whatever else is on YouTube, but the whole your whole wind down period could be sitting and watching this show.

Chris Schwager 24:41
And so it got me really thinking because we've neglected our YouTube channels just for so many years? And so I was like, alright, we're already recording recording like 10 cameras, while we transferring this in, it's pretty much native format to, to YouTube. And so we've started that process. And when I've looked at it, I've felt the same way. I was like, Okay, well, this, there's a lot going on, there's some good information here delivered. And it's not just a two shot locked off, and, you know, listening in, and not much to look at their stuff dancing around all the time. And so it's kind of visually appealing.

Chris Schwager 25:14
But is it important that that companies think about how the diversifying their delivery not just okay, it's, you know, 15 minute tutorial video for YouTube, but they are thinking about audio, they are thinking about podcasts, they are thinking about long form short form content, and spreading it as wide as they can go.

David Ciccarelli 25:35
Creating voices, I met with a marketing consultant, who gave me an a really important lesson as well, which was whatever your marketing mix is going to be pick one or two channels and just own it. Just you know, just own those know, everything there is to know about it. And as you brought up, you know, video and a podcast, that might be right for some businesses, who can who go into it knowing can you do 100 episodes? Do you love meeting new people? Do you? Are you comfortable with the sound of your own voice? I mean, these are the type of things that immediately turn someone off. Someone else might be a prolific writer. And they are the, you know, the overused term, but the thought leader or the expert have the opinion holder in their company. And they can write and that's how they do it. Some people might be public speakers, however, you're getting that message out there, find the format that's right for you.

David Ciccarelli 26:31
Now you have certain content that might be you know, maybe more suited as evergreen content. I think that's where a video makes a lot of sense here. You're teaching your customers, product explainer videos, product tutorial videos, I define the difference between an explainer is almost more almost more salesy promotional, I'm teaching somebody about a new idea. Whereas, you know, product tutorials are kind of walking you through step by step, click by click.

David Ciccarelli 27:00
In in both of those situations, it doesn't need to be the CEO or the founder who's doing the voiceover, I think that might make sense where, you know, you want to, you know, maybe you can even try, you know, a male voice for one style female for another, if it's animated, you might even want to consider having it translated and dubbed in another language as well too. Kind of one of the benefits of animation. But you know, I would leave with this in and the takeaway on this particular point is, you know, I, likewise, I kind of caution just jumping into the new shiny marketing channels, social media channel, or, you know, endeavor, whatever it is. Just because it's there.

David Ciccarelli 27:42
It's if it doesn't align with your work style, and how you're already communicating as a as a small, medium sized business, I think you'll struggle with it. And you'll feel like it's a chore. Those who love with podcasts, you're gonna go great, we got a new guest on the show, where I can't wait for tonight's episode or today's episode. That's the enthusiasm you want to bring so that you can stick with it over the long haul.

Chris Schwager 28:04
Yeah, and I think something like Tiktok is overwhelming for a lot of people. And it's not so much about conforming to the platform, but being you and let the platform take you where it needs to take you. I think a lot of people and ourselves included are trying to engineer something because it's like Tiktok-worthy aside, no it's bullshit, you know that that should just be, we should just be transferring information, we don't know if it's going to work or not. And, you know, scattering ourselves to this other new platform accordingly. And it was someone a couple of LinkedIn experts that I listened to talking about, you know, put it all in on 90% into one or two platforms, as you said, the remaining 10 Just just be there. Do you know what I mean? Because for the one off chance that somebody is prolific on Instagram, for instance, then they'll still be getting their healthy dose and, you know, penny may drop for them one day.

David Ciccarelli 28:58
And you know, a lot of people who become insta-famous actually really struggle with taking that audience off of that platform and creating your own, on your own website, your own domain, where you can then complement it with email marketing and video and blogging and get SEO in there. Like there's no having landing pages where you can run ads now. So that I think becomes a struggle with building up a business solely on a social platform. You are kind of limited and have the constraints, sometimes the creative constraints, don't get me wrong, but you're, you're somewhat limited to the features and functionality of that and how you engage your audience there. So, you know, I view social as more of an extension of kind of, you know, if you will, the the primary platform for us, which is voices.com. And all these others, you know, we have, we have a phrase that all all links lead to voices. So, that's, that's one of the things that we're we're trying to create is like inbound links, either their social links or their news and media, or it's a quick mention at the bottom of, you know, a video, it's great that the interaction happens offline. But ultimately, we want to create a customer on voices.com. So that's how we think about it in terms of the broader network.

Chris 30:16
Yep. Great. And so you mentioned earlier talking about CEOs and their appeal in I guess video and audio, do you think that hiring a voice artist instead of letting CEO speak in project like, for us, very common projects, company profile video, lessens the credibility of a video?

David 30:33
I think if the, there's a time and place right for the CEO and another executive, a leader in the organization to lend their voice. In my experience, it's best when it's kind of, they are a true spokesperson like an announcement, being on a podcast, hosting a webinar, something live right? Like giving a speech to entire team. That's when the CEO or an executive works out. Knowledge is fine. That's kind of ideal, frankly almost expected. It's when it's an advertisement, I mean there's very few instances that I can recall where the voice of an advertisement was the founder of the organization. Aside from, was it Dave Thomas from Wendy's hamburgers, like years ago he used to do all his own. There's a few instances but they're very few and far between. So I think in those situations where it's promotional in nature, again I think a lot of CEOs don't like to come of as feeling sales-y either, so that's again why maybe an actor is getting into character in and on of themselves.

David 31:39
And my best advise for that is, how do I know how to pick a great voiceover? People like to buy from people who sound like them. So all you have to do is ask yourself, who is it that I'm trying to reach? Who's that audience? And then, almost like creating a character sketch of what they look like, what they sound like, how they speak and that's really ends up being the artistic direction for the archetype that you want to have represented of your brand. Your brand is like the reflection of the people you're trying to reach and therefore that should in turn be almost like the personification of your brand or customers and that's what you're trying to capture with the voice actor is that speaking to people in the way they wanted to be spoken to using their language, even if that is jargon, even if there's kind of colloquialism whatever it is that your audience is gonna go, this people, this brand gets me. This organisation gets me. We're speaking the same language.

Chris 32:43
David, this episode has been really insightful. I've loved the kind of breadth of where we've taken this. And audio is often overlooked. Is visuals more important than audio?

David 32:57
I think that's a tough one but you know certainly they both have their place. each can stand alone but they can also work better when they're together. You can have a video only experience and audio-only experience like we talked about. I think the best means of communication is when audio and video are working seamlessly together.

Chris 33:19
Beautiful. Beautifully set. If you wanna learn more about David, about audio marketing or anything to do with voices.com, then please have a look at the show notes and we'll leave all of David's details in there. David thank you for being part of the show. I think you brought a breath of expertise around audio, the world of audio versus video. So thank you so much for having us on the show.

David 33:48
Thank you for having me. Great to be here.

Chris 33:50
Video is everything but without audio, you're back to reading. Having a clear audio and voice tracks is the easiest way to communicate with your market. Thanks for tuning in, that's all for this episode of Video Made Simple podcast and see you next week.